Tuesday 30 August 2022

Archetypes: The Duality of Diva with Mariah Carey

"I’ve been stuck on this one for a while, because somewhere along the way, and I can’t quite place where, but this word 'diva' -- which actually means 'goddess' in Latin -- the word just warped. It went from high class…to high maintenance. From fun -- like, 'Yes, diva!' to 'Ugh, she’s such a diva.' These days, it’s so often used to tear a woman down -- and it bothers me. But what if there was someone out there who might be able to change my mind about it?" - Meghan.

American comedian and actress Amanda Seales tells Meghan: "Diva is Maria Callas, honey, you know, Diva is the grand dame. Diva was not a negative connotation. Like, that's the aspiration. Diva is who they came to see. Okay. When I did my first spoken word performance, I signed up on the sign up list, Amanda. And then I put Diva in parentheses because it felt dumb to just put diva was just like Amanda. Then I put Diva in parentheses, and then the woman introduced me as she was, like, 'Coming up to the stage, coming to the stage we have Amanda Diva.' And I was like, 'Oh, I like that.' And it stuck! And so I went by Amanda Diva for years."

For the second episode of Archetypes, Meghan met Mariah Carey to discuss 'The Duality of Diva'.

Following a greeting and conversation about their dogs (Mariah's Cha Cha and Mutley P. Gore Jackson the Third were with her), Meghan marveled at the songstress' "unapologetically glamorous" wardrobe -- a "silk, embroidered gown that’s wrapped around her with gorgeous canary diamonds dripping down her neck". Discussing her childhood, Mariah said: "I lived with my mom and we, we moved like 14 times. So I had nothing. No money, you know, nothing. I would see these people on TV and their hair was, like, flowing in the wind. And that's why I always have the wind. I'm like, I'm going to have that. I'll have that! But it was, you know, I didn't fit in. I didn't fit in. You know, it would be more of the Black area of town or then you could be where my mom chose to live, were the more, the white neighborhoods. And I didn't fit in anywhere at all."

Mariah: "I remember being in school in this predominantly white neighborhood where my mom felt comfortable and I tried my best to feel comfortable, you know. But this kid was in, in the hallway, and he said, 'Mariah has three shirts and she wears them on rotation.' And it was like, it was true. I mean, the fact that he noticed that, I'm like, *sings* 'Why you so obsessed with me?' But no, I was like, 'Why do you care?' But, in a world where you're the mixed kid of a full on white neighborhood, that's what you get."

Meghan: "Yeah. Look, and this is part of why when I was putting this conversation together, I had to talk to you. Of course I had to talk to you. You were so formative for me. Representation matters so much. But when you are a woman and you don't see a woman who looks like you somewhere in a position of power or influence, or even just on the screen – because we know how influential media is – you came onto the scene, I was like oh, my gosh. Someone…someone kind of looks like me."

Of her own experiences, Meghan said: "I think for us, it's very different because we're light skinned. You're not treated as a Black woman. You're not treated as a white woman. You sort of fit in between. I mean, if there's any time in my life that it's been more focused on my race, it's only once I started dating my husband. Then I started to understand what it was like to be treated like a Black woman. Because up until then, I had been treated like a mixed woman. And things really shifted."

There was quite a bit of girl talk and a couple of 'fangirl' moments for Meghan, too. Recalling watching Divas Live VH1 1998 in high school (a concert with the greats: Celine, Aretha, Gloria, Shania...and of course, Mariah). She was also excited to discuss the Dreamlover video. "I remember so vividly, the Dreamlover video. Okay. I  remember going, I need to get jean shorts. Oh, I need to get jean shorts. Need to have that little checkered, that checkered tied up shirt." Meghan loved Mariah's curly hair and recalled her grandmother brushing hers: "My hair is so curly and it's so, so thick. I just remember as a child because my mom's Black, and so my grandma Jeanette would do my hair. She'd go, 'Just hold on to the sink.' And I would grip my little hands on both sides."

Meghan also spoke to Dr Mashinka Firunts Hakopian -- a scholar of media studies, feminist studies, and contemporary visual culture who shared her own fascinating analysis: "It's kind of a law of physics that if a woman or a femme or a minoritized person comes up in the public’s imaginary, then of course, so too must they go down. And this is also the case with the diva. So we see the meaning of the word originally, slowly shift away from virtuosity to instead connote a petulant, capricious, temperamental person suffering from fantasies of their own grandeur. So you know… when the term diva begins to acquire pejorative connotations is when women who are classified as divas begin acquiring power, including public visibility and wealth."

Maria also discussed the end of her first marriage to Tommy Mottola, the CEO of Carey's label at the time.

"My first marriage, I was very much what's the word? I was kind of locked away and I was sort of, you know, given the rules and had to stick with them. And Butterfly wasn't like, Oh, I'm a butterfly. It was a song. The lyrics came to me like, like sometimes writing, in writing I will feel like, okay, lyric, melody just got that. Just got a full on gift, right? So I I heard that as I was leaving the manor, it was called Storybook Manor, as I was leaving where we lived in this massive mansion. Right, that I paid for half of – people don't know that, that I and I wanted to because I didn't want to be like where my mom and we would live with this boyfriend and that boyfriend and whoever and wherever. And they always could say, like, get out of my house. I never wanted that for myself.

I always wanted it to be like, ‘You know what? I own this too,’ like whatever. But people didn't look at it like that. They were like she's a kept woman. She's this, she's that. You know, it was all about that because the way of thinking at that time was very much like, of course, he's doing everything, of course - how. But I'm like, ‘Hi, I'm a songwriter. That's what I do.’ I know that I was always ambitious from the time I was like... the first time I realized what I had, like my life and my um where we lived and how I was different for so many reasons. 

You know, and that's why when people were like, Oh, she's doing records with rappers, oh, she's doing this and that, it's like, yeah, because maybe we have a lot more to connect with than what you think you see. Clearly I've worked hard, but it was also something like I started working hard at six years old, having to be the savior when like, you know, somebody would knock somebody else out and in my house and I would, I would have to remember the number and that's before the cell phones. And I was like, you know, calling my mom's friends to come help her out. She's like, been knocked out. And I watched that happen. Like, I watched her fall down on the floor. And I saw that and I said, that's what I'm not, here's what we're not going to do. So the ambition came from that.'"

Meghan said: "My adolescent Mariah Carey obsessed, sweet, sweet fantasy had come true. And yes, that pun is very much intended, because when I was a young teenager, I wanted to dress, look, be, sing, do everything like Mariah Carey. She was so glamorous and fabulous and talented. She was successful. And she was mixed, like me. She was an aspirational figure I could see and you have to see it to believe it, they say. Well, I could see her. And it made me feel like I was also seen."

On the moment Mariah said to Meghan she gives "diva moments", Meghan reflected after the conversation: "It was all going swimmingly, I mean really well. Until that moment happened, which I don't know about you, but it stopped me in my tracks… when she called me a diva! You couldn't see me, obviously, but I, I started to sweat a little bit. I started squirming in my chair in this quiet revolt, like, wait, wait, no, what? How? But? How could you? That's not true, that's not… Why would you say that? My mind genuinely was just spinning with what nonsense she must have read or clicked on to make her say that. I just kept thinking, in that moment, was my girl crush coming to a quick demise? Does she actually not see me? So she must have felt my nervous laughter...

"When she said diva, she was talking about the way that I dress, the posture, the clothing, the quote unquote, fabulousness as she sees it. She meant diva as a compliment. But I heard it as a dig. I heard it as the word diva, as I think of it. But, in that moment, as she explained to me, she meant it as chic, as aspirational. And how one very charged word can mean something different for each of us, it’s mind blowing to me. And it actually made me realize that in these episodes, as I've opened the door for conversation surrounding the archetypes that try to hold us back. What I hadn't considered was that for some, reclaiming the words is what they feel will propel us forward."

I thought it a very open moment and a window into how the labels, the archetypes, affect Meghan today.

As the conversation drew to a close, Meghan added: "I've said often through, especially the last few years of my life, my faith is greater than my fear, whether that's faith in yourself or faith in God or faith in something bigger, whatever it is. It has to be bigger than your fear."

Archetypes has become a resounding global success, storming the charts and dethroning Joe Rogan in the US for the No. 1 spot. It's also No. 1 in the UK -- a little reported fact over here.

Next Tuesday, Meghan chats to Mindy Kaling. In the meantime, I wouldn't rule out a US Open appearance. Harry and Meghan will be preparing to travel to the UK and Germany this weekend for engagements kicking off on Monday, too.

19 comments:

  1. I have to just laugh at all the hysteria among the usual Meghan haters. And for those who think Meghan should remain voiceless without personal input in her interviews, aside from her right to speak and her obvious talent in interviewing, why really would we listen without hoping to gain a little more insight into what makes Meghan tick? She is the draw, love her or hate her (I'm in the love group).

    This was another excellent topic. For those who feel they don't hear enough on the topics (ambition in the first podcast, diva in the second), these are not mean to be theses. The basic concepts are good and can be stated in a few sentences. The rest of the podcasts are enjoyable details to back up the themes.

    Another thing to consider is that people may not listen to the podcasts if they did not think they would get a little gossip. Meghan is savvy -- and she's allowed to speak her own truths after having so many nontruths allowed. This is the real person; consider why we would want to fawn over someone who is just a façade; this is the Meghan who has life-long friends.

    And speaking of The Cut, she was styled by The Cut, and I wonder if she would look just a bit different of her friend Daniel had done so. I'm trying to chase down better photos of the earrings, which may take some time!

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    1. Allison, if I may add to your point these are not interviews as we view on TV or read in magazines they are true and honest glimpses into conversations between women who know each other on some level. I find it exhausting to read peoples expectations rather then the simple enjoyment of listening without motive. These conversations allow us to know the guests as well as Megan on a very personal level. I could have listened forever about the "ladies" discussion of their hair as young girls regardless of our cultural backgrounds. We all have the stories of the rubber rollers, hair pins and perms gone terribly wrong.
      As Taylor Swift says, "the haters are going to hate, hate, hate."

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    2. Thank you, USA Granny, for putting it so well. Yes, these podcasts are discussions about words, or labels. Not late-night show interviews, which we already have 100s to choose from.

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  2. This podcast makes me happy. As a mixed race girl myself this conversation was EVERYTHING! Also I'm obsessed with the Archetypes theme song, is it downloadable somewhere cause I really really wanna blast it and dance to it in front of the full length mirror in my closet, like a morning boost positive affirmations exercise type of thing. GOD BLESS YOU Princess Meghan!!! You're truly a godsent for my sense of self-worth and self-confidence.

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    1. Hello, It's Emmy Meli :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaGM5SRStQo

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    2. Thank you! And thanks for this lovely and safe blog!

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    3. Yes, is very... suitable for the podcast. Well done, Meghan! :)

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  3. thanks for this Charlotte. i can identify with what these two are saying because im a black and white mixed woman too

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  4. This podcast was an enlightening look at the evolution of the word "Diva" in our culture. I appreciated the historical perspective and the inclusion of Leontyne Price as the admired Diva she was.

    I was most impressed with Meghan's honesty and vulnerability around being called a Diva by Maria. How brave to share her reaction and processing of this word when applied to her, and her coming to the realization the the word has different meanings to different people at different times.

    Meghan may not be perfect, but she is brave, highly intelligent, honest, humble, and trying to lift women up. She has started conversations around the world. So, she is also very effective.

    I will always be her fan.

    Thank you, Charlotte for the coverage, and for including the video of Dr Mashinka Firunts Hakopian, which I have not had time to listen to yet.

    R

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    1. I always enjoy your comments and your fierce loyalty for the Duchess. Thank god she is not perfect. There are too many women desperately trying to be. This needs to end. Meghan is leading the way and helping to create a new energy where women and men can be themselves. Thank You Charlotte for the excellent coverage.

      Lots of love to everybody for this weekend

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  5. Thanks for posting the link to the podcast. This episode is even better than the first exploring what it means to be a diva. The podcast is very “polished” with excellent production values.
    -celticgirl

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  6. This episode was fire! I enjoyed the first one but I felt the Podcast really hit it's stride here - bravo! So excited for next week -op

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  7. The Serena interview was interesting, 2 powerful women, who made their own destiny. They worked for it, nothing was handed to them. But I didn’t connect with it, I’m not a type A, I’m a C at best, and listening to type A’s makes me anxious.
    The Mariah episode, talking about hair, their hair!
    I spent 20 years of my life trying to get flat, swing when head turns, hair. I was born with very curly, clumps up when I turn my head up, humidity a danger, hair.

    10 years ago I was getting “keratin” treatments which for a month made my hair super straight & less for a few months, but I started swimming every day & I was tired, no over, playing with my hair’s texture & am now going grey so it’s the real me now.
    Anyway enough about me.
    I’m liking this podcast more than a I thought I would. I took a news break a few weeks ago and have not returned. It’s podcasts like this one that will keep me learning.

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  8. Meghan is an understated scholar who does not have to try to be scholarly-- it flows naturally as simplicity. Her podcasts are layered intellectually so that even a simpleton can extract valuable information, and so too can the general public -but academia will have audio textbooks to be unpacked, and to be dissected along multiple plains of intellectual discoveries. Millions of pre-royal global fans are having listening parties across the globe to satisfy their appetite for "think-pieces" form the days of the TIG. Bravo Meghan.

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  9. That was a well-balanced package and presentation. I admit to having been kind of confused with the word “Diva”. I missed the first podcast.
    Charlotte – Thank you for posting the audio.

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  10. This podcast makes me happy. hmm she inspire a lot young woman in color Asian black she these generation

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  11. Being a mixed British woman, this less than an hour long conversation is the most public service I felt any royal has ever done for me in my entire lifetime. Thank you Duchess of Sussex for discussing growing up mixed with the legendary Mariah Carey.

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  12. I scroll on my phone to look at news and there's more "Meghan is destroying the world" items than usual! Who knew she had such power? This will separate the Tig lovers from those who were fans as long as she just looked pretty and didn't say much. I think Spotify is getting their money's worth!

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Welcome to Mad About Meghan! We do so look forward to reading your thoughts. Constructive, fair debate is always encouraged. Hateful, derogatory terms and insults are not welcome here. This space focuses on Harry and Meghan, not any other member of the Royal family. It's not the place to discuss politics either. Thank you for reading, we look forward to your comments :)