"I’ve been stuck on this one for a while, because somewhere along the way, and I can’t quite place where, but this word 'diva' -- which actually means 'goddess' in Latin -- the word just warped. It went from high class…to high maintenance. From fun -- like, 'Yes, diva!' to 'Ugh, she’s such a diva.' These days, it’s so often used to tear a woman down -- and it bothers me. But what if there was someone out there who might be able to change my mind about it?" - Meghan.
Billboards for Meghan’s #archetypes podcast have appeared in New York, Los Angeles and Canada 🔥 pic.twitter.com/uJzqecdwSR
— Myra (@SussexPrincess) August 25, 2022
American comedian and actress Amanda Seales tells Meghan: "Diva is Maria Callas, honey, you know, Diva is the grand dame. Diva was not a negative connotation. Like, that's the aspiration. Diva is who they came to see. Okay. When I did my first spoken word performance, I signed up on the sign up list, Amanda. And then I put Diva in parentheses because it felt dumb to just put diva was just like Amanda. Then I put Diva in parentheses, and then the woman introduced me as she was, like, 'Coming up to the stage, coming to the stage we have Amanda Diva.' And I was like, 'Oh, I like that.' And it stuck! And so I went by Amanda Diva for years."
For the second episode of Archetypes, Meghan met Mariah Carey to discuss 'The Duality of Diva'.
Following a greeting and conversation about their dogs (Mariah's Cha Cha and Mutley P. Gore Jackson the Third were with her), Meghan marveled at the songstress' "unapologetically glamorous" wardrobe -- a "silk, embroidered gown that’s wrapped around her with gorgeous canary diamonds dripping down her neck". Discussing her childhood, Mariah said: "I lived with my mom and we, we moved like 14 times. So I had nothing. No money, you know, nothing. I would see these people on TV and their hair was, like, flowing in the wind. And that's why I always have the wind. I'm like, I'm going to have that. I'll have that! But it was, you know, I didn't fit in. I didn't fit in. You know, it would be more of the Black area of town or then you could be where my mom chose to live, were the more, the white neighborhoods. And I didn't fit in anywhere at all."
Mariah: "I remember being in school in this predominantly white neighborhood where my mom felt comfortable and I tried my best to feel comfortable, you know. But this kid was in, in the hallway, and he said, 'Mariah has three shirts and she wears them on rotation.' And it was like, it was true. I mean, the fact that he noticed that, I'm like, *sings* 'Why you so obsessed with me?' But no, I was like, 'Why do you care?' But, in a world where you're the mixed kid of a full on white neighborhood, that's what you get."
Meghan: "Yeah. Look, and this is part of why when I was putting this conversation together, I had to talk to you. Of course I had to talk to you. You were so formative for me. Representation matters so much. But when you are a woman and you don't see a woman who looks like you somewhere in a position of power or influence, or even just on the screen – because we know how influential media is – you came onto the scene, I was like oh, my gosh. Someone…someone kind of looks like me."
Of her own experiences, Meghan said: "I think for us, it's very different because we're light skinned. You're not treated as a Black woman. You're not treated as a white woman. You sort of fit in between. I mean, if there's any time in my life that it's been more focused on my race, it's only once I started dating my husband. Then I started to understand what it was like to be treated like a Black woman. Because up until then, I had been treated like a mixed woman. And things really shifted."
Her new podcast, Archetypes, discusses the ways women are unfairly labeled—an experience Meghan has been through herself and is finally ready to talk about. "It’s really nice to be able to tell your own story," she says. https://t.co/VNU0VcEOsz
— The Cut (@TheCut) August 29, 2022
📷: @CampbellAddy pic.twitter.com/3TEVt8So3L
There was quite a bit of girl talk and a couple of 'fangirl' moments for Meghan, too. Recalling watching Divas Live VH1 1998 in high school (a concert with the greats: Celine, Aretha, Gloria, Shania...and of course, Mariah). She was also excited to discuss the Dreamlover video. "I remember so vividly, the Dreamlover video. Okay. I remember going, I need to get jean shorts. Oh, I need to get jean shorts. Need to have that little checkered, that checkered tied up shirt." Meghan loved Mariah's curly hair and recalled her grandmother brushing hers: "My hair is so curly and it's so, so thick. I just remember as a child because my mom's Black, and so my grandma Jeanette would do my hair. She'd go, 'Just hold on to the sink.' And I would grip my little hands on both sides."
Meghan also spoke to Dr Mashinka Firunts Hakopian -- a scholar of media studies, feminist studies, and contemporary visual culture who shared her own fascinating analysis: "It's kind of a law of physics that if a woman or a femme or a minoritized person comes up in the public’s imaginary, then of course, so too must they go down. And this is also the case with the diva. So we see the meaning of the word originally, slowly shift away from virtuosity to instead connote a petulant, capricious, temperamental person suffering from fantasies of their own grandeur. So you know… when the term diva begins to acquire pejorative connotations is when women who are classified as divas begin acquiring power, including public visibility and wealth."
Maria also discussed the end of her first marriage to Tommy Mottola, the CEO of Carey's label at the time.
"My first marriage, I was very much what's the word? I was kind of locked away and I was sort of, you know, given the rules and had to stick with them. And Butterfly wasn't like, Oh, I'm a butterfly. It was a song. The lyrics came to me like, like sometimes writing, in writing I will feel like, okay, lyric, melody just got that. Just got a full on gift, right? So I I heard that as I was leaving the manor, it was called Storybook Manor, as I was leaving where we lived in this massive mansion. Right, that I paid for half of – people don't know that, that I and I wanted to because I didn't want to be like where my mom and we would live with this boyfriend and that boyfriend and whoever and wherever. And they always could say, like, get out of my house. I never wanted that for myself.
I always wanted it to be like, ‘You know what? I own this too,’ like whatever. But people didn't look at it like that. They were like she's a kept woman. She's this, she's that. You know, it was all about that because the way of thinking at that time was very much like, of course, he's doing everything, of course - how. But I'm like, ‘Hi, I'm a songwriter. That's what I do.’ I know that I was always ambitious from the time I was like... the first time I realized what I had, like my life and my um where we lived and how I was different for so many reasons.
You know, and that's why when people were like, Oh, she's doing records with rappers, oh, she's doing this and that, it's like, yeah, because maybe we have a lot more to connect with than what you think you see. Clearly I've worked hard, but it was also something like I started working hard at six years old, having to be the savior when like, you know, somebody would knock somebody else out and in my house and I would, I would have to remember the number and that's before the cell phones. And I was like, you know, calling my mom's friends to come help her out. She's like, been knocked out. And I watched that happen. Like, I watched her fall down on the floor. And I saw that and I said, that's what I'm not, here's what we're not going to do. So the ambition came from that.'"
Meghan said: "My adolescent Mariah Carey obsessed, sweet, sweet fantasy had come true. And yes, that pun is very much intended, because when I was a young teenager, I wanted to dress, look, be, sing, do everything like Mariah Carey. She was so glamorous and fabulous and talented. She was successful. And she was mixed, like me. She was an aspirational figure I could see and you have to see it to believe it, they say. Well, I could see her. And it made me feel like I was also seen."
On the moment Mariah said to Meghan she gives "diva moments", Meghan reflected after the conversation: "It was all going swimmingly, I mean really well. Until that moment happened, which I don't know about you, but it stopped me in my tracks… when she called me a diva! You couldn't see me, obviously, but I, I started to sweat a little bit. I started squirming in my chair in this quiet revolt, like, wait, wait, no, what? How? But? How could you? That's not true, that's not… Why would you say that? My mind genuinely was just spinning with what nonsense she must have read or clicked on to make her say that. I just kept thinking, in that moment, was my girl crush coming to a quick demise? Does she actually not see me? So she must have felt my nervous laughter...
"When she said diva, she was talking about the way that I dress, the posture, the clothing, the quote unquote, fabulousness as she sees it. She meant diva as a compliment. But I heard it as a dig. I heard it as the word diva, as I think of it. But, in that moment, as she explained to me, she meant it as chic, as aspirational. And how one very charged word can mean something different for each of us, it’s mind blowing to me. And it actually made me realize that in these episodes, as I've opened the door for conversation surrounding the archetypes that try to hold us back. What I hadn't considered was that for some, reclaiming the words is what they feel will propel us forward."
I thought it a very open moment and a window into how the labels, the archetypes, affect Meghan today.
As the conversation drew to a close, Meghan added: "I've said often through, especially the last few years of my life, my faith is greater than my fear, whether that's faith in yourself or faith in God or faith in something bigger, whatever it is. It has to be bigger than your fear."
Archetypes has become a resounding global success, storming the charts and dethroning Joe Rogan in the US for the No. 1 spot. It's also No. 1 in the UK -- a little reported fact over here.
Meghan is holding strong & rising. #Archetypes is still No. 1 in 10 markets & now No. 2 in Norway & Switzerland. It has surpassed Joe Rogan in all countries but Sweden.
— R.S. Locke / Royal Suitor (@royal_suitor) August 28, 2022
📈@ArchetypesChart
🔹Held - US, UK, Canada, AUS, NZ, Ireland France, India; untracked - Portugal, Hong Kong pic.twitter.com/1c2INl9PmQ
Next Tuesday, Meghan chats to Mindy Kaling. In the meantime, I wouldn't rule out a US Open appearance. Harry and Meghan will be preparing to travel to the UK and Germany this weekend for engagements kicking off on Monday, too.